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	<title>Comments on: The Voynich Cipher for code-breakers&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers</link>
	<description>The latest news, views, research and reviews on uncracked historical ciphers...</description>
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		<title>By: Diane</title>
		<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers/comment-page-1#comment-19213</link>
		<dc:creator>Diane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 May 2010 19:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ciphermysteries.com/?p=1641#comment-19213</guid>
		<description>I think the point about the imbalance between odds and evens is interesting - and conjured up an interesting image viz. someone with a book that was to be read in the way that Hebrew and many Asian languages are. So the &#039;evens/reverses&#039; would actually be our Odds/recto, and the handful of complementary references might suggest commentary, or imagery, facing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the point about the imbalance between odds and evens is interesting &#8211; and conjured up an interesting image viz. someone with a book that was to be read in the way that Hebrew and many Asian languages are. So the &#8216;evens/reverses&#8217; would actually be our Odds/recto, and the handful of complementary references might suggest commentary, or imagery, facing.</p>
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		<title>By: Fastercat</title>
		<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers/comment-page-1#comment-6741</link>
		<dc:creator>Fastercat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ciphermysteries.com/?p=1641#comment-6741</guid>
		<description>I was reading the article about the Currier A/B and was thinking to myself that perhaps there are additional messages hidden.  The text is a carrier for multiple streams of information.  

You do have a good point though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was reading the article about the Currier A/B and was thinking to myself that perhaps there are additional messages hidden.  The text is a carrier for multiple streams of information.  </p>
<p>You do have a good point though.</p>
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		<title>By: nickpelling</title>
		<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers/comment-page-1#comment-6725</link>
		<dc:creator>nickpelling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As I understand it, the whole point of the Bacon biliteral cipher was &lt;strong&gt;steganographic&lt;/strong&gt; - to embed it inside natural-looking text to hide its presence. So why embed it in something as artificial as &quot;qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I understand it, the whole point of the Bacon biliteral cipher was <strong>steganographic</strong> &#8211; to embed it inside natural-looking text to hide its presence. So why embed it in something as artificial as &#8220;qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Fastercat</title>
		<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers/comment-page-1#comment-6724</link>
		<dc:creator>Fastercat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ciphermysteries.com/?p=1641#comment-6724</guid>
		<description>“qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy”.
It could also be something simple like a Bacon Cipher version of &#039;e&#039; AABAA.  Time frame is wrong, but doesn&#039;t necessarily mean the method is incorrect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy”.<br />
It could also be something simple like a Bacon Cipher version of &#8216;e&#8217; AABAA.  Time frame is wrong, but doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean the method is incorrect.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Bunn</title>
		<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers/comment-page-1#comment-5794</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Bunn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ciphermysteries.com/?p=1641#comment-5794</guid>
		<description>Hi Nick,

Take the hypothetical mapping

qokedy =&gt; &quot;f&quot;
dal =&gt; &quot;ra&quot;

so “qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy” could be part of the word &quot;riffraff&quot;. I think the GC transcription for that VMs sequence is &quot;4ohc89 4ohc89 8ae 4ohc79 4ohc79&quot;  which allows more possibilities. I tend to work only with GC, but my feeling is that it is over zealous - probably those 7s are really 8s.

Julian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nick,</p>
<p>Take the hypothetical mapping</p>
<p>qokedy =&gt; &#8220;f&#8221;<br />
dal =&gt; &#8220;ra&#8221;</p>
<p>so “qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy” could be part of the word &#8220;riffraff&#8221;. I think the GC transcription for that VMs sequence is &#8220;4ohc89 4ohc89 8ae 4ohc79 4ohc79&#8243;  which allows more possibilities. I tend to work only with GC, but my feeling is that it is over zealous &#8211; probably those 7s are really 8s.</p>
<p>Julian</p>
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		<title>By: nickpelling</title>
		<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers/comment-page-1#comment-5764</link>
		<dc:creator>nickpelling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ciphermysteries.com/?p=1641#comment-5764</guid>
		<description>Hi Julian,

One of the places where this kind of (&lt;em&gt;actually very sensible&lt;/em&gt;) explanation falls a bit short is in Q13, home to the famous &quot;qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy&quot;. There&#039;s something a bit artificial going on there, however you look at it :-o 

Cheers, ....Nick Pelling....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Julian,</p>
<p>One of the places where this kind of (<em>actually very sensible</em>) explanation falls a bit short is in Q13, home to the famous &#8220;qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy&#8221;. There&#8217;s something a bit artificial going on there, however you look at it <img src='http://www.ciphermysteries.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':-o' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>Cheers, &#8230;.Nick Pelling&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Bunn</title>
		<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers/comment-page-1#comment-5763</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Bunn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ciphermysteries.com/?p=1641#comment-5763</guid>
		<description>Nick, thanks for the reply. To clarify what I meant: the Voynich &quot;words&quot; each equate to &lt;i&gt;pieces&lt;/i&gt; of plaintext words. The pieces are concatenated together to make the complete plaintext word. Voynich word-final &quot;9&quot; signifies the end of the plaintext word group.

If you group the Voynich words in this way, then the stats for the resulting plaintext word lengths look more realistic (but with a long tail, for which there could be several explanations). I am currently having fun exploring this theory with a GA, and will be sure to let you know when the manuscript has yielded its secrets to this approach :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, thanks for the reply. To clarify what I meant: the Voynich &#8220;words&#8221; each equate to <i>pieces</i> of plaintext words. The pieces are concatenated together to make the complete plaintext word. Voynich word-final &#8220;9&#8243; signifies the end of the plaintext word group.</p>
<p>If you group the Voynich words in this way, then the stats for the resulting plaintext word lengths look more realistic (but with a long tail, for which there could be several explanations). I am currently having fun exploring this theory with a GA, and will be sure to let you know when the manuscript has yielded its secrets to this approach <img src='http://www.ciphermysteries.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: nickpelling</title>
		<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers/comment-page-1#comment-5713</link>
		<dc:creator>nickpelling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ciphermysteries.com/?p=1641#comment-5713</guid>
		<description>Hi Julian,

I suppose the first issue with all word-based theories is working out to what degree you believe a Voynichese &quot;word&quot; corresponds to a plaintext word. There are certainly many places where you can see (what I think Glen Claston termed) &quot;half-spaces&quot;, which you&#039;d have to be particularly careful about when looking for any kind of word-based stats: inserted spaces would also disrupt any merry stats-gathering parties. :-( 

And the second issue is that if Voynichese words do (for the most part) correspond to plaintext words, and you also happen to subscribe to the notion that common pairs (such as &lt;strong&gt;qo, ol, or, al, ar&lt;/strong&gt;, etc) encipher single tokens, then you&#039;re left with the problem that the words are far too short to be real words - i.e. that some kind of shorthand &quot;shortening&quot; stage precedes the verbose stage. My own prediction, then, is that &quot;4o&quot; codes for &quot;&lt;strong&gt;subscriptio&lt;/strong&gt;&quot; (&lt;em&gt;i.e. expansion of the first letter&lt;/em&gt;), mid-word &quot;8&quot; codes for &quot;&lt;strong&gt;superscriptio&lt;/strong&gt;&quot; (&lt;em&gt;i.e. syllable contraction&lt;/em&gt;), and word-final &quot;9&quot; codes for &quot;&lt;strong&gt;truncatio&lt;/strong&gt;&quot; (&lt;em&gt;i.e. shortening of the overall string&lt;/em&gt;).

To be honest, I&#039;d be a bit surprised if you could find many examples (i.e. above the level of chance) where part-words / ngrams gave a decent explanation for Voynichese&#039;s properties - but all the same, please let me know how you get on!

Cheers, ....Nick Pelling....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Julian,</p>
<p>I suppose the first issue with all word-based theories is working out to what degree you believe a Voynichese &#8220;word&#8221; corresponds to a plaintext word. There are certainly many places where you can see (what I think Glen Claston termed) &#8220;half-spaces&#8221;, which you&#8217;d have to be particularly careful about when looking for any kind of word-based stats: inserted spaces would also disrupt any merry stats-gathering parties. <img src='http://www.ciphermysteries.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>And the second issue is that if Voynichese words do (for the most part) correspond to plaintext words, and you also happen to subscribe to the notion that common pairs (such as <strong>qo, ol, or, al, ar</strong>, etc) encipher single tokens, then you&#8217;re left with the problem that the words are far too short to be real words &#8211; i.e. that some kind of shorthand &#8220;shortening&#8221; stage precedes the verbose stage. My own prediction, then, is that &#8220;4o&#8221; codes for &#8220;<strong>subscriptio</strong>&#8221; (<em>i.e. expansion of the first letter</em>), mid-word &#8220;8&#8243; codes for &#8220;<strong>superscriptio</strong>&#8221; (<em>i.e. syllable contraction</em>), and word-final &#8220;9&#8243; codes for &#8220;<strong>truncatio</strong>&#8221; (<em>i.e. shortening of the overall string</em>).</p>
<p>To be honest, I&#8217;d be a bit surprised if you could find many examples (i.e. above the level of chance) where part-words / ngrams gave a decent explanation for Voynichese&#8217;s properties &#8211; but all the same, please let me know how you get on!</p>
<p>Cheers, &#8230;.Nick Pelling&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: nickpelling</title>
		<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers/comment-page-1#comment-5679</link>
		<dc:creator>nickpelling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 06:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ciphermysteries.com/?p=1641#comment-5679</guid>
		<description>Hi Vytautas,

It&#039;s certainly possible - and remember that Steve Ekwall believed that &#039;ch&#039; denoted a &#039;flip&#039; and the &#039;e / ee / eee&quot; characters denoted a &#039;step&#039;. :-)  

All the same, I think we would need to amass a whole new class of raw statistical evidence before we begin to look for stateful behaviour...

Cheers, ....Nick Pelling....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Vytautas,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s certainly possible &#8211; and remember that Steve Ekwall believed that &#8216;ch&#8217; denoted a &#8216;flip&#8217; and the &#8216;e / ee / eee&#8221; characters denoted a &#8216;step&#8217;. <img src='http://www.ciphermysteries.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   </p>
<p>All the same, I think we would need to amass a whole new class of raw statistical evidence before we begin to look for stateful behaviour&#8230;</p>
<p>Cheers, &#8230;.Nick Pelling&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Vytautas</title>
		<link>http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/06/the-voynich-cipher-for-code-breakers/comment-page-1#comment-5678</link>
		<dc:creator>Vytautas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 05:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ciphermysteries.com/?p=1641#comment-5678</guid>
		<description>Hi, Nick,
I have one question :) May it be that marks &quot;i&quot;  in words &quot;aiiin&quot;, &quot;aiin&quot; or so denotes changes of state ? It will be interesting to know your opinion for me...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Nick,<br />
I have one question <img src='http://www.ciphermysteries.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  May it be that marks &#8220;i&#8221;  in words &#8220;aiiin&#8221;, &#8220;aiin&#8221; or so denotes changes of state ? It will be interesting to know your opinion for me&#8230;</p>
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